157. I was conducted to yet another earth which is in the universe beyond our solar system, which was effected by changes of the state of my mind, consequently as to the spirit; for, as has already been repeatedly observed, a spirit is conducted from place to place no otherwise than by changes of the state of his interiors, which changes appear to him in all respects as advancements from place to place, or as journeyings. These changes lasted continuously for about ten hours before I came from the state of my life to the state of their life, thus before I arrived there as to my spirit. I was conveyed towards the east, to the left, and seemed to be gradually elevated from a horizontal plane. I was also permitted to observe clearly the progression and advance from my former place, till at length those from whom I had departed no longer appeared; and in the meantime I spoke on various subjects with the spirits who were with me. A certain spirit was also with us who, during his life in the world, had been a prelate and a preacher, as well as a very pathetic writer. From my idea concerning him, my spirit-companions supposed he was more a Christian at heart than the rest; for in the world an idea is conceived and a judgment formed from the preaching and writing, and not from the life, if this is not manifest; and if anything inconsistent appears in the life, it is nevertheless excused; for the idea or thought and perception concerning any one draws everything to its side.

158. After this I observed that I was, as to my spirit, in the starry heaven, far beyond our solar system; for this can be observed from the changes of state and the consequent apparent continued progression, which had lasted nearly ten hours. At length I heard spirits conversing near some earth, which also I afterwards saw. When I had come near them, after some conversation they said that strangers sometimes come to them from other places, who converse with them concerning God, and confuse the ideas of their thought. They also pointed out the way by which they came, from which it was perceived that they were of the spirits of our Earth. On being questioned then as to the confusion caused in their ideas, they said it arose from those spirits saying that they ought to believe in a Divine Being distinguished into three persons, whom they nevertheless call one God; and on examining the idea of their thoughts, it is exhibited as a trine, not continuous hut discrete, with some as three persons conversing with each other, and with some as two seated together, one near the other, and a third listening to them and going from them; and although they call each person God, and have a different idea concerning each, they still say there is but one God. They complained exceedingly, that they had thrown them into a confusion of ideas, by thinking of three and speaking of one, when nevertheless one ought to think as one speaks, and speak as one thinks. The spirit who in the world had been a prelate and a preacher, and who was also with me, was then examined as to the character of the idea he entertained respecting one God and three persons: [and it was found that] he represented to himself three gods, which, however, made one by continuity. He, however, exhibited this Three in One as invisible because it was Divine; and while he was exhibiting this, it was perceived that he was then thinking only of the Father, and not of the Lord, and that his idea concerning the invisible God was no other but as of nature in its first principles, from which idea it resulted that the inmost of nature was his Divine, so that he might easily be led from this to acknowledge nature as God. It is to be borne in mind, that the idea which any person entertains on any subject is, in the other life, exhibited to the life, and through it every one is examined as to the character of his thought and perception on matters of faith; and that the idea of the thought concerning God is the chief of all, for through it, if genuine, conjunction is effected with the Divine, and consequently with heaven. They were afterwards questioned concerning the nature of their idea respecting God. They replied that they did not conceive of an invisible God, but of a God visible under the Human Form; and that they knew this not only from an interior perception, but also from the fact, that He has appeared to them as a Man. They added that if, according to the idea of some strangers, they were to conceive of God as invisible, consequently without form and quality, they would not be able to think about God at all, inasmuch as such an invisible [being] does not fall into any idea of thought. On hearing this, it was given me to tell them that they do well to think of God under the Human Form, and that many on our Earth think in like manner, especially when they think of the Lord; and that the ancients thought in no other way. I then told them about Abraham, Lot, Gideon, Manoah and his wife, and what is related of them in our Word, namely, that they saw God under the Human Form, and acknowledged Him, thus seen, to be the Creator of the universe, and called Him Jéhovah, and this also from an interior perception; but that at the present day that interior perception is lost in the Christian world, and only remains with the simple who are in faith.

159. Previous to this conversation, they had believed that our company also consisted of those who want to confuse them by the idea of three in relation to God; wherefore, on hearing what was said, they were affected with joy, and said that God, whom they then called the Lord, had also sent some to teach them concerning Him; and that they are unwilling to admit strangers who disturb them, especially with the idea of three persons in the Divinity, knowing as they do that God is One, consequently that the Divine is One, and does not consist of three in unanimity, unless they are disposed to think of God as of an angel, in whom there is an Inmost of life which is invisible, and from which he thinks and is wise; an External of life, which is visible under a human form, from which he sees and acts; and a Proceeding of life, which is the sphere of love and of faith from him; for from every spirit and angel there proceeds a sphere of life by which he is known at a distance[cc]; and as to the Lord, that that Proceeding of life from Him is the Divine itself which fills and constitutes the heavens, because it proceeds from the very Esse of the life of love and of faith. They said that in this and in no other manner can they perceive a trinity and unity together. On hearing this, it was given me to say that such an idea of a trinity and unity together agrees with the angelic idea concerning the Lord, and that it is from the Lord’s own doctrine concerning Himself. For He teaches that the Father and Himself are One; that the Father is in Him and He in the Father; that he who seeth Him seeth the Father; and he who believeth in Him believeth in the Father and knoweth the Father; also that the Comforter, whom He calls the Spirit of Truth, and likewise the Holy Spirit, proceeds from Him, and does not speak from Himself but from Him, by which Comforter is meant the Divine proceeding. I was further permitted to tell them that their idea concerning a trinity and unity together agrees with the Esse and Existere of the Lord’s life when He was in the world. The Esse of His life was the Divine Itself, for He was conceived of Jéhovah, and the Esse of every one’s life is that of which he is conceived; the Existere of life from that Esse is the Human in a form. The esse of the life of every man, which he has from his father, is called the soul, and the existere of life thence derived is called the body. Soul and body constitute one man. The likeness between them resembles the likeness between that which is in endeavour and that which is in the resulting act, for an act is endeavour acting, and thus the two are one. Endeavour in man is called the will, and endeavour acting is called action; the body is the instrumental, by means of which the will, which is the principal, acts, and in acting the instrumental and principal are a one. Such is the case with soul and body. And such is the idea which the angels in heaven have concerning soul and body: hence they know that the Lord made His Human Divine from the Divine in Himself, which to Him was the Soul from the Father. Neither is the faith which is received throughout the Christian world in opposition to this idea, for it teaches, that “Although Christ is God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ;... yea, He is altogether One by unity of Person; for as body and soul are one man, so also God and man are one Christ"[yy]. As there was such a union or such a oneness in the Lord, therefore He rose again, not only as to the Soul, but also as to the Body, which He glorified in the world, which is not the case with any man; on which subject He also instructed His disciples, saying, “Feel Me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have” [(Luke xxi][zz]. This was clearly understood by those spirits, for such truths fall into the understanding of angelic spirits. They then added, that the Lord alone has power in the heavens, and that the heavens are His; to which it was given me to answer, that this also is known to the Church on our Earth from the mouth of the Lord Himself before He ascended into heaven; for He then said, “All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth” [(Matt, xxvii].

160. I afterwards conversed with those spirits concerning their earth; for all spirits can do this when their natural or external memory is opened by the Lord; for this they carry with them from the world, but it is not opened except at the Lord’s good pleasure. Respecting their earth, from which they had come, the spirits then said that when leave is given them, they appear to the inhabitants, and converse with them, as men; and that this is effected by their being let into their natural or external memory, and consequently into such a thought as they had been in when they lived in the world; and that on such occasions the inhabitants have their interior sight or the sight of their spirit opened, by which they see the spirits. They added, that the inhabitants know no otherwise than that they are men of their earth, and only apperceive they are not when they are suddenly removed from their sight, I told them that the same thing also happened on our Earth in ancient times, as, for instance, to Abraham, Sarah, Lot, the inhabitants of Sodom, Manoah and his wife, Joshua, Mary, Elizabeth, and the prophets generally; and that the Lord appeared in like manner, and they who saw Him knew no otherwise than that He was a man of the earth, till He revealed Himself. But that at the present day this rarely happens; the reason is, lest men by such things should be compelled to believe; for compelled faith, such as is the faith which enters by means of miracles, does not inhere, and would also be hurtful to those with whom faith may be implanted by means of the Word in a state without compulsion.

161. The spirit, who had been a prelate and a preacher in the world, entirely disbelieved that any other earths existed besides our own, because he had thought in the world that the Lord was born on this Earth alone, and that without the Lord none could be saved; wherefore he was reduced into a state similar to that into which spirits are reduced when they appear on their own earth as men (which state has been treated of just above); and thus he was let into that earth, so that he not only saw it, but also conversed with the inhabitants there. This done, a communication was by this means granted me also, so that I likewise saw the inhabitants, and also some objects on that earth (see above, n. There appeared then four kinds of men, but one after the other in succession; the first I saw were clothed; the second were naked, of a human flesh colour; the next were naked, but with flame-coloured bodies; and the last were black.

162. While the spirit who had been a prelate and a preacher was with those who were clothed, a woman with a very pretty face appeared. She was simply attired; her robe hung gracefully behind her, and was also drawn over her arms, and she wore a beautiful head-dress, in the form of a chaplet of flowers. That spirit was greatly delighted at the sight of this virgin; he spoke to her, and also took her by the hand; but, apperceiving that he was a spirit, and not of that earth, she hurried hastily away from him. Afterwards there appeared to him on the right several other women, who had the care of sheep and lambs, which they were then leading to a watering-trough, into which water was led by means of a trench from some lake. They were similarly clothed, and had shepherds’ crooks in their hands, by which they led the sheep and lambs to drink; they said the sheep went whichever way they pointed with their crooks: the sheep which we saw were large, with woolly tails, broad and long. The faces of the women, when seen nearer, were full and beautiful. Some men were also seen; their faces were of a human flesh colour, like that of the men of our Earth, but with this difference, that the lower part of the face, instead of being bearded, was black, and the nose more of a snowy-white than of a flesh colour. Afterwards the spirit who, as already mentioned, had been a preacher in the world, was led further on, but reluctantly, because he was still thinking about that woman with whom he had been delighted, as was evident from the circumstance that there still appeared something of his shadow in the former place. He then came to those who were naked. They were seen walking together by twos, husband and wife, girt with a girdle about the loins, and some sort of covering around the head. That spirit, when he was with them, was led into the state in which he had been in the world when he was disposed to preach, and then he said he would preach before them the Lord crucified; but they said they would not hear such a thing, because they did not know what it was, but that they knew that the Lord lives. He then said he would preach the Lord living; but this too they refused, saying that they apperceived in his speech something not heavenly, because it had much respect to himself, and his own fame and honour; and that they could hear from the tone of voice whether what was said came from the heart or not; and that, as he was of such a character, he was unable to teach them; wherefore he was silent. During his life in the world he had been extremely pathetic, so that he could deeply move his hearers to holiness; but this pathetic manner had been acquired by art, thus from self and the world, and not from heaven.

163. They said, moreover, that they have a perception whether the Conjugial is with those of their clan who are naked; and it was shown that they perceive this by virtue of a spiritual idea concerning marriage, which idea being communicated to me was to the effect, that a likeness of the interiors was formed by the conjunction of good and truth, consequently of love and faith, and that from that conjunction descending by influx into the body conjugial love comes into existence. For all things which belong to the mind (animus) are exhibited in some natural form in the body, consequently in the form of conjugial love, when the interiors of two mutually love each other, and from that love also desire to will and to think the one as the other, and thus to be together and be conjoined as to the interiors which are of the mind (mens). Hence the spiritual affection, which is of the minds, becomes natural affection in the body, and clothes itself with the sense of conjugial love. The spiritual affection which is of the minds is the affection of good and truth, and of their conjunction; for all things of the mind, or of the thought and will, have relation to truth and good. They also said that it is quite impossible for the Conjugial to exist between one man and several wives, since the marriage of good and truth, which pertains to the minds, can exist only between two.

164. After this, the spirit already spoken of came to those who were naked, but whose bodies were flame-coloured; and lastly, to those who were black, some of whom were naked and some clothed; but the latter and the former dwelt in a different part of the same earth; for a spirit may be led in an instant to places far asunder on an earth, since he does not proceed and advance like man through spaces, but through changes of state (see above, nos. 125, 127)[ss].

165. I lastly conversed with the spirits of that earth concerning the belief of the inhabitants of our Earth on the subject of the resurrection, in that they cannot conceive that men come into the other life immediately after death, and then appear as men as to the face, the body, the arms, the feet, and all the external and internal senses; still less that they are then clothed in garments, and have mansions and dwelling-places; and that the sole reason of this is that most persons here think from the sensuals which belong to the body, and therefore believe in the existence of nothing but what they see and touch; and that few of them can be withdrawn from external sensual things to interior things, and thus be elevated into the light of heaven, in which such things are perceived. Hence it is, that they can have no idea of their soul or spirit as of a man, but as of wind, or air, or a breath without form, in which there is yet something vital. This is the reason why they do not believe they shall rise again till the end of the world, which they call the Last Judgment, when the body, though mouldered into dust, and scattered by every wind, will be brought together again and conjoined to its soul or spirit. I added, that it is permitted them to believe this, since those who, as was said, think from external sensual things, can conceive no otherwise than that the soul or spirit cannot live as a man in a human form, unless it receive again that body which it carried about in the world; wherefore, unless it were asserted that the body will rise again, they would reject from their heart as incomprehensible the doctrine of the resurrection and of eternal life. But nevertheless this thought concerning the resurrection has this advantage with it, that it leads them to believe in a life after death, a consequence of which belief is, that when they lie on a sick bed, and do not, as theretofore, think from worldly and corporeal things, thus not from sensual things, they then believe that they shall live immediately after their decease; they then also speak of heaven, and of the hope of a life there immediately after death, quite apart from their doctrinal concerning the Last Judgment. I related further, that sometimes it had been matter of surprise to me, that when those who are in faith speak of a life after death, and of their friends and relatives who are dying or dead, and do not at the same time think about the Last Judgment, they believe that they will live or are living as men immediately on their decease. But as soon as thought concerning the Last Judgment flows in, this idea is changed into the material idea concerning their earthly body, that it is again to be conjoined to their soul; for they do not know that every man is a spirit as to his interiors, and that this it is which lives in the body and in each of its parts, and not the body which lives of itself; and that it is the spirit of every one from which his body has its human form, and which, consequently, is principally the man, and in a similar form, but invisible to the eyes of the body, yet visible to the eyes of spirits. Hence also, when the sight of a man’s spirit is opened, which is effected by the removal of the bodily sight, angels appear as men: in this manner angels appeared to the ancients, as recorded in the Word. I have also sometimes spoken with spirits, with whom I had been acquainted when they lived as men in the world, and I have asked them whether they had any inclination to be clothed again with their earthly bodies, as they used to think would be the case. But they fled far away at the very idea of such a conjunction, being smitten with amazement that, while in the world, they should have thought in this manner under the influence of so blind a belief, devoid of all understanding.

166. Moreover, on that earth I saw the dwellings of the inhabitants: they were lowly houses, extended in length, with windows at the sides, according to the number of the rooms or chambers into which they were divided. The roof was arched, and there was a door on each side at the end. They told me that they were built of earth, and covered with turf; and that the windows were formed of filaments of grass woven together in such a manner that the light shone through. I also saw little children; and the inhabitants told me that their neighbours come to them, especially for the sake of the little children, that they may be in company with other children in the presence and under the direction of their parents. There also appeared fields becoming white with standing crops that were at that time nearly ripe for harvest. The seeds or grains of that corn were shown me, and they were like grains of Chinese wheat: I was also shown some bread made from it, which was in small square loaves. There also appeared plains of grass adorned with flowers; also trees laden with fruit like pomegranates; also shrubs, which were not vines, but still produced berries from which they prepare wine.

167. The sun of that earth, which is to us a star, appears there flaming, in size almost a fourth part of our sun. Their year is about two hundred days, and each day fifteen hours, relatively to the length of days on our Earth. The earth itself is one of the least in the starry heaven, being scarcely five hundred German miles in circumference. The angels stated these particulars from a comparison made with things of the like kind on our Earth, which they saw in me, or in my memory. Their conclusions were formed by angelic ideas, whereby are instantly known the measures of spaces and times, in a just proportion relatively to spaces and times elsewhere. Angelic ideas, which are spiritual, in such calculations immensely surpass human ideas, which are natural.